Interview -- David Surkamp (Pavlov's Dog)
"People certainly didn't know
what to make of us,
let's put it that way."
~ David Surkamp ~
There is a fierce and fearless determination in the musical path David Surkamp has chosen to discourse throughout his long music-laden career. Lead singer and songwriter for the Midwest prog-rock band Pavlov's Dog, David Surkamp often delivers his songs with aching urgency and melancholic desperation in a wonderfully unique timbre that begs no quarter. Only to be aided by a fantastic, underrated band of musicians who carry his message along with equal confidence and calculation.
Pavlov's Dog first introduced themselves to the world with their debut, "Pampered Menial" in 1975. An album that has only gotten better with age. Mojo ranked..."Pampered Menial"...#26 among their list of 40 Cosmic Prog-Rock albums and is certainly a square to give another listen. From needle drop to label, no lifting is required. We are soon approaching the 50th anniversary of the classic "Pampered Menial" and later this year Pavlov's Dog will be hitting the road touring overseas and hopefully a few more dates in the States. The shows are sure to be a must-see. David Surkamp...Go get you some.
David Surkamp Interview -- April 2024
David Surkamp
Casey Chambers: We're coming upon the 50th anniversary of "Pampered Menial"...the debut album from Pavlov's Dog. This amazing album holds up so well. What was going on with you guys at that time? Had you been carrying those songs around for a while?
David Surkamp: Well, I had "Episode" for a long time. I wrote that song when I was about...18. We had been playing "...Subway Sue" for maybe a year. I mean I'm always writing songs. So, usually, my favorite song is whatever I've written lately. (laughs) That was our first record. But a few did carry over from earlier work. Before we were Pavlov's Dog. Rick Stockton and I had a band called High On A Small Hill and we were doing "Episode" then. We couldn't have been more than 18 or 19 at that point.
Casey Chambers: The arrival of Pavlov's Dog was a different flavor of jam in the States. What was it like coming out of St. Louis as a progressive rock band?
David Surkamp: Yeah, we were kind of lonely in our genre. We were probably the only progressive band in America at that point. Very few of us, anyway. We were definitely coming from a different place than everybody else. Most of the bands around here...the biggest bands around this area were probably REO Speedwagon, if you're a Gary Richrath fan. And Head East. Danny Fogelberg. The band Kansas were around and they were on the progressive side. But we were in our own little place compared to everybody else. (laughs) I came from a folk background, basically. Siegfried (Carver) was classical and jazz. We were all coming from different places. David Hamilton is an extraordinary talent and having him on piano was a Godsend. People certainly didn't know what to make of us, let's put it that way.
We didn't play blues. I mean, it was pretty easy to see Albert King if you were growing up in St. Louis. Or Ike and Tina Turner. The first time I heard Duane Allman play guitar was at a little music store in Manchester in Tower Grove. I heard this screaming guitar coming out of the music store and pulled my car up. I guess that was the first time Duane had ever played through a Marshall. (laughs) It was an extraordinary time. We didn't play anything you might expect to hear in St. Louis. (laughs) What we were doing stood alone.
Casey Chambers: Was that before the Allman Brothers Band had started?
David Surkamp: Yeah, Duane was in a band called Hour Glass. They were first called the Allman Joys if I'm not mistaken. But they were called Hour Glass the first time I saw him.
"Theme from Subway Sue" - Pavlov's Dog / "Pampered Menial" (1975)
Casey Chambers: Where was "Pampered Menial" recorded and how exciting was it to actually be in a studio with those songs?
David Surkamp: We recorded the album in New York City at CBS studio. In fact, the piano that David played was Arthur Rubinstein's Steinway. And it was a difficult Steinway to play. Apparently, it had pretty heavy action. It sounded amazing. It was the same room where they cut "Like a Rolling Stone" and Miles Davis' stuff. A world-class room and we were all aware of it. We were so impressed. We were just kids basically, but I definitely knew where I was. To myself I was thinking, 'Bob Dylan stood here.' (laughs)
Casey Chambers: When the album finally came out in 1975, it was released on two different record labels and at nearly the same time. That's just weird. Why did that happen?
David Surkamp: We were initially signed to ABC, and just as the album was coming out, ABC fired their president Jay Lasker. Since Lasker was the one who signed Pavlov's Dog, we thought maybe we weren't going to get the support we needed to get anywhere. So Columbia Records bought our deal off of ABC. The album was out for about six weeks on just the ABC label. Maybe a little more or a little less. Then all of a sudden, "Pampered Menial" was out on both labels. And charting at two different spots. It killed any momentum it would've had. I mean, if you add the CBS numbers and ABC numbers together...that's one thing. But when you divide everything 50-50, or however it was...yeah, it was strange. A strange trip.
Casey Chambers: Was there any upshot at all to that?
David Surkamp: Not that I know of, no. I was just a singer-songwriter guy. I'd never made albums before or anything. I had no idea what I was doing.
Casey Chambers: Well, the album did go platinum overseas after Columbia stepped in. And the opening track "Julia" from your album is just so killer and one that got Billboard's attention. And for prog that says something. And the epic closing track "Of Once and Future Kings" has almost become the band's "Free Bird" in concert.
"Julia" - Pavlov's Dog / "Pampered Menial" (1975)
David Surkamp: Oh, well I was sitting in my bedroom when I wrote "Julia." My parents had this large house on a golf course in St. Louis. They had moved out and about half of the band moved in. (laughs) I was just sitting around waiting for The Raspberries to come on TV. It was either "In Concert" or Don Kirshner. One of those Saturday evening rock and roll shows. I sort of wrote "Julia" during the ads. The Raspberries were a pretty big Midwestern band, so we were all pulling for them. (laughs) And I wrote the song in 15 or 20 minutes. It wasn't any great effort on my part, but like I said, I write stuff all the time. I think it was the only song I played acoustic guitar on...on the whole album. First thing you hear is David's piano, and then my acoustic guitar. And yeah, it seemed to work. (laughs) You try to trick yourself into coming up with something new. Experimenting with new avenues. I'm one of those people who's perfectly happy sitting in front of the piano for hours. Writing is what I like to do. And "Of Once and Future Kings" is just one of those songs we have to do at every show. Not that I mind. It's a great song to sing. Fans like to sing along with us on that one, which is great. I quite enjoy it. We have had some real loyal fans for a long time. Our audiences tend to run from teenagers to people my age. I'm 70, now. I guess certain people like that kind of melancholy
Casey Chambers: Oh, for sure. What was touring like for you guys in those days?
David Surkamp: Well back then, it was pretty rough. I can't remember if there were even monitors yet. There used to be side fills for the vocals. Singers were almost an afterthought, you know? Initially, we didn't even have a decent P.A. I was singing through whatever the hell we could find basically. We had a Volkswagen Microbus that we all jammed into and we rented a truck. The biggest problem was we had so much gear! Even before we got signed. We were hauling around two Mellotrons. A Hammond organ. I mean, you haven't lived until you've had a Mellotron coming at you at a hundred dbs. (laughs) An oversized drum kit. Siegfried had a 200 or 300 Watts Sunn Head Coliseum. And then he had an acoustic lead guitar amp running through a couple of 4x12s and maybe an 8x10 cabinet. It was loud! And all that gear had to squeeze into the truck. (laughs) It was generally a big truck and a small VW bus to get us around. It was pretty rough.
Pavlov's Dog (1975-76)
Casey Chambers: Who were you working the stages with in those early days?
David Surkamp: Our first break was when we opened for Jefferson Starship. They took us out for a few dates and that's what got us signed, I think. We started achieving a reputation for being a really good live band. And doing those shows with Starship got us noticed. And a local radio station in St. Louis called KSHE...KSHE-95...began playing a demo of "Theme From Subway Sue." It was in heavy rotation. And that started a bidding war with the record companies. And, like I said, we wound up at ABC and then finally CBS. And then our first big tour, after the album came out was with Electric Light Orchestra.
Casey Chambers: Sweet!
David Surkamp: Yeah, that was really fun. But we played with a ton of bands. I mean, Slade. Heart opened for us. Blue Oyster Cult. They were good friends of ours. We played with them a ton. I think we did a gig with REO. I can't remember all the bands. We were busy.
Casey Chambers: I heard you guys did some shows with the New York Dolls. A great show, I'm sure...but sounds like an odd pairing. Difficult even.
David Surkamp: Actually, that was our first concert. Opening for the Dolls. It was the first concert we ever played, period. It was their first tour and they were pretty much a bunch of idiots the way I remember it. (laughs) I remember talking to Johnny Thunders a bit 'cause he had a Les Paul Jr. that was really nice. I'm basically a Fender guitar guy, but I have a fondness for a Les Paul Jr and he had a really cool beat-up yellow one. We got to talking about that. They were kind of into party mode, and we were just trying to come off as a reasonably good band on our first big show. (laughs) I didn't think much of their music at the time, but it was okay. Actually, I heard "Personality Crisis" on the radio a few days ago, and I thought it was better than I remembered it. (laughs)
Casey Chambers: You mentioned Blue Oyster Cult, which reminds me that Sandy Pearlman and Murray Krugman also produced Pavlov's Dog's first two albums.
David Surkamp: Oh yeah. Sandy and Murray produced all of the Blue Oyster Cult albums. Murray was a good egg, but Sandy was my hero. He was so smart. A big picture guy. Incredible. He didn't know middle C from whatever on a piano, but he really understood what I was trying to do. Where I was coming from, and how I was wanting to get there. (laughs) Sandy Pearlman was a huge influence. Really good at pushing me in the right direction. A bit of a genius, actually.
"Of Once And Future Kings" - Pavlov's Dog / "Pampered Menial" (1975)
Casey Chambers: Do you recall the first album you bought with your own money?
David Surkamp: Mm-hmm, yeah. I still have it. It's The Left Banke..."Walk Away Renee/Pretty Ballerina." I was 13 or 14 and at a school fair or something. I thought "Walk Away Renee" was just an incredible song. Years later, Iain Matthews and I had a band called Hi-Fi. He had left Fairport Convention and I had left Pavlov's Dog. And we did a cover of a Left Banke song called, "She May Call You Up Tonight" which is found on that same album. (laughs) The very first album I ever paid money for.
Casey Chambers: So your first album purchase came around full circle for you. We just never know how things will play out sometimes, do we? Pretty cool stuff.
David Surkamp: Sometimes it's good to wear your influences on your sleeve, you know?
Casey Chambers: You were good friends with Tommy Bolin. My dad used to blast "Post Toastee" around the house all the time. One of my favorite guitar players, as well. How did your paths cross?
David Surkamp: Yeah, we were buddies. He actually used to sit in with us every once in a while. He was in the James Gang then. We always threatened to have a band together at one point or another (laughs) but it just never came around. Tommy had a girlfriend in my neighborhood, in my parents' neighborhood, and a friend of mine owned a guitar store there. He said, 'Hey, you should come over to my friend's house. He's got this band. You might like him.' So I'm there. The front door is wide open. And in walks the "Boulder Flash." (laughs) He said, 'I'm Tommy Bolin.' And we just got to be good friends. Hell of a guitar player. He actually helped improve my guitar sound. He did this and said that and started turning knobs on my amp. And he'd sit around with us and we'd play stuff like Free covers. "Fire and Water" or "Wishing Well." Stuff we all knew. Actually, I don't think any of us knew all those songs, but they were simple enough to fake. (laughs) And you have not lived until you've heard Siegfried and Tommy Bolin trade solos. That was high-velocity stuff. It was good times. Good times. He died too damn young. I was in New York the day he died. He was supposedly gonna be in New York later the next week or so. I assume I would have seen him at The Record Plant where I was working. I guess we'll never know.
Casey Chambers: You mentioned KSHE earlier. They were truly on board with you guys right from the start, weren't they?
David Surkamp: Yeah, before anybody had ever heard of us, KSHE was behind us. The demo tape we made with the original version of "...Subway Sue" was getting a lot of play from KSHE. They saved us from obscurity, that's for sure. (laughs) Pavlov's Dog is basically a community of musicians. Some have been with us a really long time. Others move in and out as time progresses. I mean, Abbie Steiling, our violinist has been in the band for the last 16 or 17 years. My wife Sara has been in the band for over 20-some years. Of course, we've had a bunch of casualties along the way. Siegfried was the first to die and, of course, he was my closest friend. And Rick Stockton...we went to high school together and started the band together. Cancer got him. Douglas Rayburn, same thing. Cancer got Douglas a year or so after Rick passed away. Nathan Jatcko took his own life. As you age, you sadly lose friends along the way. But I still love playing live. So we still try to go out and do some shows every year. In fact, David Hamilton is rejoining the band for the September 2024 tour.
Pavlov's Dog (2023-24)
Casey Chambers: Having another original member hitting the stage with you again should be awesome. And looking at some of your tour dates coming up, I see places like Germany and Belgium. You guys have always had a big following in Europe.
David Surkamp: Yeah, and David will be the piano player on that tour. David's played one show in the last half-century in front of an audience so this will be huge. He's an extraordinary talent and always has been. The tour will be extraordinary.
Casey Chambers: That's exciting for fans to look forward to. I'm glad you're going out doing more shows. Maybe Pavlov's Dog can add a few more shows in the States.
David Surkamp: Well, I'm gonna keep doing it until they carry me out feet first.
Casey Chambers: My last question is what have you been listening to? What's an album or two from other artists that can feed our heads?
David Surkamp: Sure. Well, going back to Tommy Bolin, my favorite thing that Tommy ever played on was the Billy Cobham record, "Spectrum." (1973) There's a song off of that album called "Quadrant 4" that I really love. And pretty much anything Fairport Convention or King Crimson did. I'm kind of a subspecies of both of those bands anyway. I've played with Fairport members and King Crimson members. So I'm on their family tree somewhere, I guess. (laughs) Those two bands were lasting influences.
Casey Chambers: You mentioned Crimson. Which album hit you the hardest?
David Surkamp: Their first album... "In The Court Of The Crimson King." I was impressionable. I was in high school and their first record just clobbered me. That's when I started wanting to play electric guitar instead of just acoustic. Though now that I think about it, there's a lot of acoustic guitar on that first album too. (laughs) Even the title track has acoustic on it. And Neil Young's "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere." Those two albums came out around the same time and they both launched me into playing.
Casey Chambers: Is that the album with "Cowgirl In the Sand" on it?
David Surkamp: Yeah, it's got "Cowgirl In the Sand." And "Down By The River." All that stuff. It's a great album. It's pre-punk. It's punk. It just is. (laughs) And I like anything by Robert Wyatt.
Casey Chambers: He was the guy from Soft Machine, right?
David Surkamp: Yeah, yeah, he's one of my favorite singers. My favorite Robert Wyatt song is "O Caroline." from the album, "Matching Mole." (1972) It's one of my favorite songs of all time. Robert just sings it beautifully. He hadn't been injured yet, so he was still drumming and singing. He was an extraordinary drummer. I would definitely pick up "Matching Mole." And for maybe some deeper Robert Wyatt, you probably want to get The Soft Machine..."Thirds." (1970) It's a double album and it's wonderful. Robert's been paralyzed since the early '70s. He had a kind of drunken accident and fell out of a window and has been paralyzed from the waist down since. But it didn't slow him down. He's made a ton of solo records. All well worth investing in. He's just not a biped anymore. He's on wheels.
Casey Chambers: Great way to kill an evening. Headphones and squares.
David Surkamp: Absolutely. And I also heard a song earlier today. I was just YouTubeing around. There was a band called Beggar's Opera. And it was a song called, "Raymond's Road." The guitar player is Ricky Gardiner. I fell in love with Ricky's guitar playing on David Bowie's album, "Low." And on this song, he's just exploding on a Stratocaster. (laughs) It was just an accident that I heard that song today. I hadn't thought about that one in 30 years. But you might check that out too, if you like long guitar solos. (laughs)
Casey Chambers: Excellent. And I do! Plenty of recommendations for our readers to check out or revisit. As well as revisit "Pampered Menial" which just keeps getting better. It's been a real pleasure hanging out with you this morning. Thanks so much for taking time out to share some memories with us. Stay well and best to you and everyone on the new tour.
David Surkamp: Sure, thank you. Take care, Casey. And see you in the future.
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Pavlov's Dog Official Website - Tour Dates, Music, Merchandise
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